Emails between Quagmyr and cajunrose

Dec. 18, 2003

Dear Quag,

I am coming to you to put this to rest once and for all. Over the last 2 years I have heard that several ppl in the last 10 years have attempted to copyright, trademark, or patent the BDSM symbol. When it is filed with the agencies in Wash. D.C. ( including the one we spent the last year doing ), comes back that the symbol is so old, widely used, and looks so similar to other symbols, that it CAN NOT be copyrighted and is "Public Domain"... examples given are that a computer company in Calif. has it as a company logo and could not copyright it for the same reason and that it even appears on Jr. High School wrestling mats.

I know this most frustrate you to no end that they are stating this after months of ppl trying to get this all unraveled. It was described to us like trying to copyright a version of the yin yang symbol as it is so old that any small change is not enough to then "copyright, trademark, or patent" it. Thus it too remains public Domain.

What they suggested is that I write you and ask you to email me a scan copy of the copyright you did in 1995, since there is no record of this.

I await that copy from you so once and for all this can be straighten out.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this.

cajunrose

www.atruerose.com

Dec. 18, 2003

Hi, cajunrose.

Yes, over the years this issue has proven to be far more complex than I believed it to be at the start.Let me try to give you a summary as best I can. But this will still be a long ride, so settle into your chair and grab your coffee.

There are actually three copyright issues involved. Two are pretty clear. One is extremely muddy.

First, keep in mind that the Emblem was created to be a 3-dimensional items jewelry. The 2-dimensional depictions where never intended to be its primary use. As jewelry, my pieces are protected as intellectual property as artistic/sculptural works and some other category of intellectual property that protects product design for a limited time. I'm sorry not to have that information at my fingertips in terms of name and duration, but I believe that the term on the original jewelry, since discontinued, has already expired. The protection for the newer pieces should be in effect for another 2-5 years, depending on the piece in question.

This copyright/intellectual property protection, however, applies only to exact duplicates of my work, or dupicates so close as to be easily mistaken for mine. There is nothing here to prevent anyone from making any other sort of triskele design, even one that duplicates the BDSM Emblem design specs, as long as it can be easily differentiated from my pieces.

Second, there is the actual artwork I created and display. That, too, is clearly copyrighted under US copyright law. However, as with the jewelery, it does not prevent anyone from creating their own artwork of the same item, as long as they do so without using any of my own work. In short, they have to create it from scratch. This is the same as saying that you own the copyright of a drawing you make of a horse, but it does not prevent others from making their own drawing of the same horse.

The muddy area is whether the design itself is unique enough to have its own protection. And that's where opinion splits. When I first created the Emblem, the expert opinion I received was that, although untold triskleles have existed throughout history, the inclusion of the holes, combined with other specific design specifications, made the Emblem sufficiently unique. There is no tradition of triskeles with holes.

Since then, others have disputed that opinion. Cases can be made on both sides, but the only way for it to be settled absolutely would be for a dispute to go to court. That would benefit nobody and would certainly undermine the very reason for the Emblem to exist in the first place -- to be a covert symbol for our community. You can just imagine the giggles elements of the press would have with a "secret" BDSMers symbol being fought over in court. I'll come back to this in a minute.

However, there are aspects of the dispute that are very misunderstood. You talk about attempts to "copyright, patent and trademark" the BDSM Emblem. I've heard of a couple such efforts, but only anecdotally and have never seen the particulars. So I can't be certain if what was taken to various agencies was actually the proper BDSM Emblem with proper description. In one case, it turned out that the investigation was done with the Canadian copyright office. Canada has very different copyright laws than the US does. But a few points I do know.

1. Patent law does not apply in any way, shape or form to this discussion. There is nothing patentable involved so the Patent Office is irrelevent.

2. Trademark is different from copyright. Artwork which is copyrightable may not be trademarkable. They are different forms of intellectual property that convey different sets of rights and conditions for use. I have never tried to trademark the Emblem, although I have considered it. It is quite an involved and potentially expensive process. And, since the Emblem was created to be a 3-dimensional item, I don't know that trademark can apply.

3. The US Copyright office is a registry. It does not pass judgement on items registered except to determine whether or not they fall into one of the registerable classes. I don't know if you're old enough to remember the musical satirist Allen Sherman, but he and his son created my favorite example. They wrote a musical composition consisting of only one note, Middle C, and copyrighted the composition. Then Allen would go on talk shows and talk about how everybody who wrote music with a Middle C owed him money and was infringing on his copyright. Furthermore, the same was true for everyone who used any other note as well, because they were merely transposing his composition into another key.

This was, of course, nonsense and done strictly for comedy. The Sherman's copyright was worthless. In fact, it made as much sense to say that they had merely plagerized their compositon from Bach. Or Beethoven. Or the Beatles. Or anyone else who had ever used a Middle C in a composition. And yet, they had that copyright complete with official piece of paper saying so. Because the Copyright Office doesn't make those determinations. They register the claim and, if there's a dispute, the courts settle it.

4. Copyright exists whether something is registered with the copyright office or not. Under US law, copyright exists automatically from the moment of publication. Registration is required only to take an infringer to court. And the registration may take place even after the infrigement occurs. That does, however, effect whether an infringer can be sued for punitive damages. Since my intention was to keep this matter always out of the courts -- and the public eye in general -- and since the registration of copyright is not a legal determination of rights, I saw no advantage to registration.

All that being the case, the big question was, why bother claiming a copyright in the first place? Why not just release the design to public domain, as Tony DeBlase did for the Leather Pride flag?

Remember the purpose of the Emblem. TIt exists to allow BDSMers who fear persecution to quietly, discretely, and secretly identify themselves to each other even in a potentially hostile vanilla environment. There are those relying on the Emblem's secret nature who are at risk of losing their jobs, friends, and even custody of their children if their interests became known.

With that in mind, I'll quote here from the Emblem Project FAQ:

Since the Emblem is intended to be a discrete symbol, and only for BDSMers, there are two things none of us want: 1) for the Emblem to turn "cool" start tuning up on T-shirts sold at Sears so that it loses its identification value, and 2) for it to be used in a way that broadcasts its meaning to the world. Among the many requests I've received for permission to use the Emblem, there was one from a couple who were trying to create and market an adult novelty game, and they wanted to use the Emblem for BDSM elements. Very Cool! I wish them well on their efforts. But none of us want the symbol to be outed in a game anybody could pick up in Spencer's Gifts. Another fellow wanted permission to use the Emblem on the cover of his novel. It looked like a great book and was well received by people in the scene who had read it. His publisher was going to give the book a really big push. I hope it sells zillions and makes him a lot of money. But we do not want the Emblem outed in every Barnes & Noble, Borders and Walden Books in the nation. Because I retained the copyright, I was able to block those uses.

On the other hand, I didn't want the copyright issue to impede the Emblem's usefulness within the BDSM community, either. The whole point was for it to be used! So I settled on a 2-step process to avoid disputes. My thinking was, "copyright, schmopyright, if any BDSMer could use it anyway, why make a big deal about it?"

So, the first thing I did was declare openly that the BDSM Emblem was freely available for all non-profit educational, cultural or artistic use within the BDSM community. I had to limit that to non-profit so as not to open the doors to those T-shirts at Sears, etc. But it meant that if your BDSM group wanted to put it on your own t-shirts, or in your newsletter, great! If you want to paint it into your private artwork or embroider it on hand towels as gifts for your BDSM friends, go for it!

That left only those who wanted to make their own BDSM Emblems for profit. And while I wanted to keep the Emblem out of the vanilla eye, I also wanted to allow any BDSMers to make and sell good stuff. My solution there was to "sell" licenses in such a way as to make the license virtually free. Licensing arrangements are made on an individual basis, but there's no reason a license ever needs to cost anybody a single penny. In some cases, I was able to construct arrangements to help licensees make more money.

So, after all that, the bottom line answer to the question of copyright is: It would take a court case to determine the limits. But why fuss over it? If you're using the Emblem within the community, you can pretty much do whatever you want anyway. At worst, you have to exchange a few emails with me. And I would hope that anybody who gives a damn about the Emblem and what it means would gladly go through the simple motions to help protect those who rely on the Emblem's secret nature to protect them from persecution.

Whew!

Does that answer your question?

Quag

Dec. 18, 2003

Dear Quag,

Thanks for the LONG email.... so in turn let me say sit down grab a cup of coffee and let's chat.....<smiles>

Yes your jewelry is and will always be yours.... LOL, kind of like ppl can make a watch that looks like a Rolex but they can't put the name of Rolex on it. Also another example is cars... Chevrolet can make cars but can not call or use the BMW symbol.... so of course like any jeweler you would "i hope at least you do", sign or engraved or some how mark your pieces.

Normally work becomes public domain in about 7 years. I will share more on this further down.

Let me share a few things and answer some of your questions... I am 55 and have been in the lifestyle since i was 19, before we had names and pigeon hole labels...<smiles>

Also i was a professional lobbyist and because of being outed had to step back in 1999, because i lobbied for changes in child abuse laws. And i have been outed in a court... you might like to read my article on that at the url: http://www.atruerose.com/Library/rose/being-outed.html

I continue to "loan my services" at times Pro Bono for worth while causes in both the lifestyle and out of the lifestyle. Keeps my wits from dimming with old age.... LOL

I do understand intellectual property, as i am co-authoring a book with an attorney i know... even the working title is covered by "intellectual property statutes". Kind of like the English language... i don't own the intellectual property of the language only the "works produced and written using the language"... Still with me here??

(you say)"BDSM Emblem design specs, as long as it can be easily differentiated from my pieces. <snip>."

Of course i understand this, the colors can be changed and the pieces signed... kind of like a fancy jeweler that marks their pieces as they will only escalate in value by having that mark. Again i do so hope you are doing that with your jewelry, your artistic talent is something that is both a gift and the way you make your living.

(you say)"And that's where opinion splits. When I first created the Emblem, the expert opinion I received was that, although untold trickle have existed throughout history, the inclusion of the holes, combined with other specific design specifications, made the Emblem sufficiently unique. There is no tradition of tinsels with holes. <snip>"

Oh dear i do so hope you did not pay that expert that told you this.... if so, ask for your money back, for like the email i sent said this "symbol in varying forms" has been throughout history for hundreds if not thousands of years. Kind of like a "cross", made by a lot of ppl, but the design owned by none.

(you say)"That would benefit nobody and would certainly undermine the very reason for the Emblem to exist in the first place -- to be a covert symbol for our community. You can just imagine the giggles elements of the press would have with a "secret" BDSMers symbol being fought over in court. <snip>."

Kind of like the secret handshake by the Masonic Lodge for hundreds of years, right? BTW, i would bet that the extreme right religious fanatics probably know about "our secret symbol" by now, wouldn't you agree? Oh for the record, i am not as lucky as you are... i have attorney's retained in 2 states, so when you said something about lawsuit expenses, i cringed understanding all to well what you meant.

(you say)"I have never tried to trademark the Emblem, although I have considered it. It is quite an involved and potentially expensive process. And, since the Emblem was created to be a 3-dimensional item, I don't know that trademark can apply. <snip>"

I agree that now since the Emblem is everywhere and has been used for centuries it would be very difficult to trademark it... however of course organizations like Disney have high powered paid lobbyist to make sure that Mickey and Minnie, does not become public domain... They shamefully will sue even a child who paints it on a lunch box, or a nursery who paints it on a fence. Kind of makes Disney look like the bad guys to a lot of kids and other ppl who "assumed" that Disney's characters are Public Domain... I hope you agree that this example makes you kind of queasy about the greed of Disney, doesn't it?

(you say)"The US Copyright office is a registry <snip>"

Yes this is true as i said above.... even emails are now copyrighted under the DMCA. Here is the "legalese" i have to use when lobbying Pro Bono.... "Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of this email and any materials contained in any attachments is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, or are not the intended recipient(s), please immediately notify the sender by email and destroy all copies of the original message, including attachments." A whole lot of "disclaimer" and statement of ownership don't you agree?

(you say)"Another fellow wanted permission to use the Emblem on the cover of his novel. It looked like a great book and was well received by people in the scene who had read it. His publisher was going to give the book a really big push. I hope it sells zillions and makes him a lot of money. But we do not want the Emblem outed in every Barnes & Noble, Borders and Walden Books in the nation. <snip>"

I know this author you refer to personally.... he self published the book, and it is consider "underground reading for lifestylers" It is sent in a CD that is burned so it is not in Barnes and Noble, nor do i think it will ever be... But yes he shared his experience with you on the use of the symbol. However again, as you said you never filed nor received the documentation of copyright, so couldn't this be seen as "fraud"? To claim to own something that is already public domain, except in the jewelry you make which can never be ripped off, right?

(you say)"My solution there was to "sell" licenses in such a way as to make the license virtually free. Licensing arrangements are made on an individual basis, but there's no reason a license ever needs to cost anybody a single penny. In some cases, I was able to construct arrangements to help licensees make more money. <snip>"

But if you say charged a "user fee or license fee", to borrow on Tom Brokaw.... isn't that like the "fleecing of the community"? If you only sold it for $10.00 since 1995 to say 150 ppl, that is a lot of pocket money that in the end in my opinion could cause some serious dissention with those ppl who paid and as the word gets around it "blemishes you", and since you love this community i would hate to see that happen when you were trying to protect it for ALL of us... again like a secret hand shake by the Masons since many of their symbols appear on U. S. currency. How do you feel about that possibility?

(you say)"Why not just release the design to public domain, as Tony DeBlase did for the Leather Pride flag? <snip>..."

LOL i see your point but i have yet to see a T-shirt at Sears with the Leather Pride Flag on it... and look at the gift that Tony so unselfishly gave us don't you agree?

(you say)"At worst, you have to exchange a few emails with me. And I would hope that anybody who gives a damn about the Emblem and what it means would gladly go through the simple motions to help protect those who rely on the Emblem's secret nature to protect them from persecution. <snip>"

Ok here is the stickler i see and of course this is just my feelings and opinions, it is not "gospel". By asking that any site that uses the emblem to give you credit with a copyright notice and email addy, could that not be seen as an attempt to build your own business data base or fame at the expense of web site owners? Could it not backfire and have ppl come to feel a tad "gritty" about an emblem they thought you had filed to copyright and now find out that did not happen. I don't think we would ever see the emblem on T-Shirts at Sears do you? After all marketing ( which i used to do ), is targeting at an audience of specific buyers, i doubt that Sears or most stores would think we were that important, what are your thoughts?

Finally ppl tell me i am an activist... i always laugh and say "who me" .... nea... just a child of the JFK era where i want to give back to the earth i call home, to causes i believe in, to guide if asked with my expertise, and to "ask not what this lifestyle can give me but what i can give the lifestyle" ( paraphrased from a famous JFK saying ). As an example here is a recent article i wrote that ppl laugh and say "rose, you are still a hippie at heart trying to change the world for the better"... LOL http://www.atruerose.com/Library/rose/minority.html

I would like to suggest this to you Quaq, this is the holiday season... why not let A True Rose proclaim that you have like Tony DeBlase, given to the community you so love this symbol as public domain ( with the exception of course of copying your jewelry which i would fight for you if that EVER happened ), and give it as a celebration of who we are, and that each of us will have the integrity to treat this symbol with the same respect and pride we do the Leather Pride Flag.

A nice exchange and lots of food for thought, BTW, do you have a commercial site and if so please send me the url, and what part of the country do you live in, do you go to places like Black Rose conventions and sale your jewelry?

Looking forward to hearing from you,

cajunrose

Dec. 19, 2003

Hi, cajunrose!

Thanks for all the detailed information.

As I said earlier, it's long been clear to me that the sticky issues are far muddier than I was first lead to believe. But I do want to clear up what may be some misunderstandings.

(you say) "for like the email i sent said this "symbol in varying forms" has been throughout history for hundreds if not thousands of years. Kind of like a "cross", made by a lot of ppl, but the design owned by none."

Absolutely true. Nobody owns the overall design of the cross. But there are very specific crosses that are indeed owned as intellecrual property. Perhaps the most obvious example is the symble of the International Red Cross. If you were to start, say, an ambulance company and use the same cross design used by the Red Cross as part of your logo, the Red Cross would force you to remove it. They do indeed own that specific cross design.

Likewise, nobody owns the triskele. As you said, they have a history of many hundreds of years in various cultures, just as the cross does. But I it is indeed possible to own one specific triskele design, provided that it is distinct and unique.

For a clear precedent, check out the U. S. Department of Transportation at http://www.dot.gov/. You'll find that their logo is a Triskele. And I have no doubt that they protect the use of their logo. Again, it is one specific triskele design, not all triskeles.

Let me be clear about this. Not all triskeles are the BDSM Emblem. In fact, most of the triskeles I've seen on BDSM web sites are NOT the BDSM Emblem. If you haven't seen the web page on the Emblem Project site that discusses this matter, it's at http://members.aol.com/quagmyr/is.htm.

As for the Disney thing, aside from being shameful, that's an example of sheer incompetence. I won't go into my rant there. :-)

(you say) "<snip> The US Copyright office is a registry <snip>"

I have to disagree with you on this one, unfortunately with the help of politicians I have talked to the copyright office many times <sighs> very time consuming but enlightening...As in the 1978 copyright laws as well as the DMCA of 1998. Some ppl trying to slip through on these laws have filed suits on say "John Doe" as you mention in your email and do it Pro Se, and then they hope to get a default judgment."

I may be missing something here. Are you saying that the Copyright office, which is a division of the Library of Congress, is empowered to pass legal rulings? If so, that's totally contrary to everything I've read. My understanding of such shenaigans and battles is that, which they begin with filing of copyright, the actual resolution of a dispute must go to the judicial system, of which the Library of Congress is not a part.

(you say) "Did you know that even God Bless America is still covered? Makes you kind of sick doesn't it?"

Well, on one hand I believe that songwriters are duly entitled to the full run of copyright for themselves and their heirs, even if (or even especially if) the song becomes especially popular or symbollic. However, in my opinion 65 years should be plenty.

(you say) "I know this author you refer to personally.... he self published the book, and it is consider "underground reading for lifestylers" It is sent in a CD that is burned so it is not in Barnes and Noble, nor do i think it will ever be..."

I can't say for certain but I suspect you're thinking of a different author and a different novel. I would guess you're thinking of a certain science-fiction adventure series. The novel I was referring to was a murder mystery/thriller to be published by a major publisher. I have no idea if it ever actually was published or not.

(you say) "However again, as you said you never filed nor received the documentation of copyright, so couldn't this be seen as "fraud"?"

Absolutely not. If the item is copyrightable, then I own the copyright, period, whether it is registered or not. I created it and published it. Nothing else is required unless I wish to sue somebody, which I don't.

(you say) "But if you say charged a "user fee or license fee", to borrow on Tom Brokaw.... isn't that like the "fleecing of the community"?"

Fleecing how? Remember, I'm operating under the assumption that I do have a valid claim to copyright. How can basically giving licenses for use, virtually for the asking, be considered fleecing? I'd call it quite the opposite.

(you say) "If you only sold it for $10.00 since 1995 to say 150 ppl, that is a lot of pocket money..."

Yeah, it sure would be! It's also four full orders of magnitude higher than anything I've ever actually required. Your talking about sales on the order of $1,500. I'm talking about requirement that would come out to more like $1.50.

Now, to be honest, what I've actually collected has been worth more than $1.50. Most people offer to "buy" their license with a sample of the item they make. That's commonly put the payment in the retail value of a couple dollars, although the licensee's true expense is far less. However, all I require is any token item so that it can be shown that there has been an exchange. As I've told all who have inquired, I'll sell a license for a Brach's Starlight Mint. The fee in one instance was one low-fat vegetarian recipe. That's been a payment option ever since. Somebody else sent a dozen chocolate chip cookies. In each case, that got them a lifetime license.

As I said in my last letter, "there's no reason a license ever needs to cost anybody a single penny." I mean that. If you can make a good Emblem item for the community, I want you to make it. And I'm not interested in getting my finger in your financial pie. I'm only interested in protecting the Emblem.

(you say) "LOL i see your point but i have yet to see a T-shirt at Sears with the Leather Pride Flag on it..."

Nor have I. But it could happen. A better example, though, would be the collar. You see a young man or woman in the store alongside their Significant Other, and they are wearing a collar. Can you look at them and know, "Oh! One of us?" Absolutely not. It could mean they're into punk fashion, or heavy metal music. Or simply like gettting a rise out of their parents. As a symbol, it has lost all identifying power in a public setting. Is that likely to happen with the BDSM Emblem? Maybe not. But there is zero advantage to opening up the possiblity and a major advantage to avoiding it.

(you say) "and look at the gift that Tony so unselfishly gave us don't you agree?"

I do agree. But keep in mind that the Leather Pride flag is an overt sybol. It is meant to be publicly recognized because it's, well, a Pride symbol. The Emblem, on the other hand, was meant to be covert, and it is therefore to all our advantage to hang on to as much of that covert nature as possible for as long as possible.

(you say) "BTW, i would bet that the extreme right religious fanatics probably know about "our secret symbol" by now, wouldn't you agree?"

(yes, I copied this quote out of order, but it made more sense to discuss it here) :-)

I don't agree entirely. My feeling is that the extreme rightists are probably as confused as many BDSMers have become, maybe more so. The majority of those interested are probably aware that a triskele is being used by BDSMers, but I'd bet that vast majority of them wouldn't be able to tell you which triskeles are truly BDSM Emblems and which are not.

Having said that, I do agree that such an open secret has a limited lifespan. I do not think that we've come close to the end of that lifespan yet unless something happens to bring the symbol to public attention. Therefore, I'm still of the opinion expressed 4 paragraphs above.

(you say) "By asking that any site that uses the emblem to give you credit with a copyright notice and email addy, could that not be seen as an attempt to build your own business data base or fame at the expense of web site owners?"

There is indeed a danger of that sort of misunderstanding. That's why, in the beginning, I tried to keep a low profile. I didn't want this to be a personal ego thing, let alone a personal business thing. The result, alas, was that somebody else jumped in and tried to claim credit for my work. They stated that they had developed the Emblem and the strategy behind it, and they claimed to have written my words. Aside from that being personally galling, it made it clear that there was absolutely no real protection for the Emblem unless I asserted my copyright as its creator. So that I did.

In order to minimize room for misunderstanding, I've also told all webmasters who inquired that it was perfectly fine for them to put the copyright notice in tiny print someplace out of the way. Most chose to put it near the Emblem anyway.

As for a business database, I've stated since day one that I do not keep one. It was only after several people had asked to be notified of Emblem Project news that I created an email list and that is absolutely opt-in. People must ask to be placed on the list and the request must come from the email address to be listed. Beyond that, I keep the records of sales required by the credit card companies, but none those people are ever contacted except for business pertaining to their order.

(you say) "why not let A True Rose proclaim that you have like Tony DeBlase, given to the community you so love this symbol as public domain ( with the exception of course of copying your jewelry which i would fight for you if that EVER happened ), and give it as a celebration of who we are, and that each of us will have the integrity to treat this symbol with the same respect and pride we do the Leather Pride Flag."

I'm willing to be convinced, but for now I really don't see any advantage to anybody in BDSM. Once that genie is out of the bottle, there is no putting it back. And please do remember that the Emblem is already so freely available within the BDSM community that a move to public domain will not make significant difference. Virtually all non-commercial use is approved, and commercial use requires little more than asking permission and a token exchange. Hell, if somebody wants to buy a license for a penny, I'll even pay for the stamp!

Because, you see, it's not the people within BDSM that make me want to keep the protection intact. It's those outside. Like the publisher who was going to out it on a novel in bookstores, or the start-up company that was going to expose it on a novelty game.

As far as my fellow BDSMers are concerned, I want them to use it the way it was created to be used. And I'll make it as easy as possible for them to do so.

(you say)"do you have a commercial site and if so please send me the url, and what part of the country do you live in, do you go to places like Black Rose conventions and sale your jewelry?"

Ah, I missed that question earlier, so I guess you haven't read through the Emblem Project web site. You'll find the home page at http://members.aol.com/quagmyr/emblem.htm. If you're looking for my products, that's at http://members.aol.com/quagmyr/jewelry1.htm.

I live in Champaign, Illinois. I vend regularly at Beat Me In St Louis and once in a while at other events. 2003 was the first time I tried to get a vending slot at Black Rose but I didn't make the cut. Of course, that turned out to be a moot point anyway. I may very well try again in 2004.

Best,

Quag

Dec. 19, 2003

Dear Quag,

Thank you.... yes we are talking about 2 different books... thanks for filling me in, however the author of the Sci-Fi books has told me that you denied him the use of the emblem on the CD cover of his books.

Here is my confusion:

(you say)"<snip> First, keep in mind that the Emblem was created to be a 3-dimensional items jewelry. The 2-dimensional depictions where never intended to be its primary use. As jewelry, my pieces are protected as intellectual property as artistic/sculptural works and some other category of intellectual property that protects product design for a limited time. <snip>"

Again in the above stated example the 7 year and then Public Domain would apply i believe, since the design was never formally filed to be copyrighted. However it is my understanding that the jewelry, art, etc. you make from the symbol is protected as your creation, just like if someone else made jewelry based on the symbol their art and pieces are protected as their artistic interpretation. So i think we agree with the 3 dimensional jewelry, right?

(you say)"<snip> If you were to start, say, an ambulance company and use the same cross design used by the Red Cross as part of your logo, the Red Cross would force you to remove it. They do indeed own that specific cross design. <snip>"

In this case the red "plus sign" ( to not offend any religious group ), on a white background has been adopted internationally as the Red Cross, and under the Geneva War Statutes because they are never combative during wars, it is suppose to give them safe passage into war zones international. You will find some of our ships that are medical and humane, uses the symbol also to state that this is not a combat or war ship, but one for medical needs and humanitarian needs. I believe that sign is used by the international Red Cross, not just the American Red Cross, is that what you are referring to?

(you say)"<snip> For a clear precedent, check out the U. S. Department of Transportation at http://www.dot.gov/. <snip>"

.... LOL, yes i have seen that and have often wonder if it was design by a "friendly person to us as a tad of joke"... And they might very well have trademark as their logo the design, just as the computer company in Cailf. i am sure has registered their symbol as a logo... logos are covered under trademarks and protected for the life of that business, in other words i don't think it ever becomes public domain for the life of that business. Is that what you were referring too?

(you say)"<snip> Let me be clear about this. Not all triskeles are the BDSM Emblem. In fact, most of the triskeles I've seen on BDSM web sites are NOT the BDSM Emblem. If you haven't seen the web page on the Emblem Project site <snip>"

I have read your web site, and that is where the questions begin to come up.... that and some emails about 2 years ago from businesses who were "terrified of you, and then angry when they learned you did not own the copyright of all jewelry or of the design", that is what i am proposing we try to change, we don't want the symbol to become tarnished as saying one man, is difficult to deal with. I won't go into that for if i have received those emails i know you have also, right?

(you say)"<snip> I may be missing something here. Are you saying that the Copyright office, which is a division of the Library of Congress, is empowered to pass legal rulings? <snip>"

No what i am saying is that they maintain the latest legislative statutes that cover copyrighted material and are available to interrupt for our law makers in Wash. D. C. An example is because this symbol is so old and used so widely internationally even, i believe in your case and again this is just my opinion from reading the statutes they house, that if you own anything it would be the "holes" that were added because it is my understanding ( again not gospel ) that you created your jewelry under the part of the copyright of "Derivative works". I would be glad to send you the url if you have not read that one.

(you say)"<snip> Absolutely not. If the item is copyrightable, then I own the copyright, period, whether it is registered or not. I created it and published it. Nothing else is required unless I wish to sue somebody, which I don't. <snip>"

This is where it becomes "sticky", you created or added to the derivative work, the "holes".... not roses where the holes are, not colors other then those you use for your jewelry, and only as you said in the 3 dimensional area of your jewelry... thus when this emblem is reproduced on the web, the holes appears as dots, which again throws it into something that has been used for hundreds of years. NOW what you will always hold is the copyright on your interpretation and writing of what the symbol stands for and as such if ANYONE uses that, they must show that the description is copyrighted to you... The example i used previously of i don't own the English language, but i do own the material that i "create" using the English language... Still with me here? ( BTW i thought your description was beautiful ).

(you say)"<snip> Now, to be honest, what I've actually collected has been worth more than $1.50. Most people offer to "buy" their license with a sample of the item they make. That's commonly put the payment in the retail value of a couple dollars, although the licensee's true expense is far less. However, all I require is any token item so that it can be shown that there has been an exchange. As I've told all who have inquired, I'll sell a license for a Brach's Starlight Mint. The fee in one instance was one low-fat vegetarian recipe. That's been a payment option ever since. Somebody else sent a dozen chocolate chip cookies. In each case, that got them a lifetime license. <snip>"

And this is where all of the problems are coming from in the community. Once other ppl file for the copyright in order to get the paper work, it comes back that the symbol is so old and used internationally so as it can not be copyrighted. Again as you said earlier the jewelry is yours, but the symbol on the world wide web, where there is "dots" because it can not show "holes" is where the anger within the community is coming from; or at least those who have contacted me over the last 2 years that started us on our own journey to attempt to legally copyright the symbol as others have done in the last 2 years. Surely you have heard this before and is the reason you mention it is much "muddier" than you ever expected, or is my request for info. the first you have heard of this?

(you say)"<snip> see a young man or woman in the store alongside their Significant Other, and they are wearing a collar. Can you look at them and know, "Oh! One of us?" Absolutely not <snip>"

It is my experience that this jewelry is "normally wore" at scene events and not in public. My collar is made so as to mesh into the vanilla world and not to cause "discussion", for to do that would be shoving my views and my lifestyle down someone else's throat... just not a good P. R. tactic. We are normally known at events as polite, good tippers, and just the opposite of how many portray us, it is my wish to keep it that way. I have been receiving emails that the symbol is beginning to stand for you and is synonymous with you, as more ppl attempt to copyright it to get that it can not be... the appearance is what i am concern about, do see where i am going with this?

(you say)"<snip> In order to minimize room for misunderstanding, I've also told all webmasters who inquired that it was perfectly fine for them to put the copyright notice in tiny print someplace out of the way. Most chose to put it near the Emblem anyway. <snip>"

Again i totally agree with you that if ANY web or book or anything prints out your description and interpretation of the emblem, you own the copyright for your words.... However many web sites feel that they have been "forced" to give you credit for all variations of the symbol itself... That is where my concern comes from, can you expand on which part you feel you own, the description, or all symbols on any BDSMers site? For instance if someone embroiders the symbol in pink and puts a peace rose where the holes would be, that is no where near your design, right and would be exempt from the necessity to show the copyright unless they also reprint the interpretation of the symbol "you created". I use the embroidery example because you did but it is a good example as you can order it to look anyway or in colors and things like roses in place of the holes.

(you say)"<snip> And I'm not interested in getting my finger in your financial pie. I'm only interested in protecting the Emblem. <snip>"

Our site if you have visited it is not commercial and never will be... it is a site made with love over the last 6 years, and have been contributed to by many many ppl. We use the symbol to "highlight certain work" and have never used any copyright notice, so by your reasoning we could be sued by you for not complying right?

(you say)"<snip> I'm willing to be convinced, but for now I really don't see any advantage to anybody in BDSM. Once that genie is out of the bottle, there is no putting it back. And please do remember that the Emblem is already so freely available within the BDSM community that a move to public domain will not make significant difference. <snip>"

This is where we disagree.... after almost 9 years, it is time to let the community have it as long as they don't copy your jewelry or print your interpretation of the emblem without giving you credit. I have began this dialogue, because ppl in the lifestyle are now expressing that they feel the emblem has been cheapen and no longer want to wear it to even scene events because of the hoopla surrounding it now. I commend you for what you have tried to do, but like everything, there comes a time to just say "I don't own the copyright for every BDSM symbol on every web site, i only own my words to describe it". I don't want the symbol to be tarnished and to become a symbol of "perceived greed" even if none is there.

Look forward to your input on this and yes I will keep trying to convince you.... that is why i used to get the big bucks.. <smiles>

cajunrose

Dec. 19, 2003

Hi, rose!

(you say)"the author of the Sci-Fi books has told me that you denied him the use of the emblem on the CD cover of his books."

I wish I still had that old correspondence. Maybe it's archived somewhere to be found if I had time. My memory, though, is that I told SirW pretty much what I tell everyone who asks for permission to use the Emblem when I'm not sure how visible it will be. I'll quote you from a recent letter to somebody else so you can see how I tend to word it. I'm pretty certain that what I told SirW was very similar:

...As regards your request to incorporate the BDSM Emblem into your logo, I can only asnwer, "that depends."

As you're probably aware, the Emblem was created to be the COVERT identifier within our community. It's purpose has been to allow BDSMers fearing persecution to identify themselves to each other even in potentially hostile environments. Some who rely on its secret nature risk losing jobs, community position, even the custody of their children if their interest in BDSM became known. As a result, I strongly discourage its use in any way that will make its significance known to the vanilla community.

If your logo will be equally covert and used strictly within the BDSM realm, I have no objection to your plans. If your expect your logo will be used publically, however, with the general public becoming aware of its meaning, I suggest that the design elements of the Leather Pride Flag would be a more appropriate base for your logo. It, after all, was meant to be our public symbol while the Emblem was meant to be our private one....

When I send such letters, I always get one of two responses. Either I'm told that the use will in no way out the meaning to the general public and thanks for the permission, or I'm told that they understand the importance of protecting others and feel that an alternative to the Emblem would be wise in their case. SirW and the instance above both fell into the latter category. SirW, however, also wished to use the Emblem on the actual CD label. And for that use received my blessing.

(you say)"I believe that sign is used by the international Red Cross, not just the American Red Cross, is that what you are referring to?"

Yes it is. But it is only one example. There are other crosses out there that are trademarks and logos. So while nobody can own the cross per se, many do own one very specific cross design as intellectual property. The Triskele shape is no different. Nobody can claim ownership of the triskele, but many (including the US Dept. of Transportation) can own a unique triskele design.

(you say)"yes i have seen that and have often wonder if it was design by a "friendly person to us as a tad of joke"... "

Wouldn't that be nice? :-) But I suspect that the USDT triskele merely shares roots with the BDSM Emblem and is not derived from it.

(you say)"emails about 2 years ago from businesses who were "terrified of you, and then angry when they learned you did not own the copyright of all jewelry or of the design""

The idea that anyone would be "terrified" of me is both sad and comical. It certainly indicates that they did not get their information from me or from anything I ever said or wrote. I've made it clear since day one that my only interest in holding my copyright was to protect the Emblem on all our behalf, and that I would make its use available, hassle-free, to anybody who asked, providing they would not use it in a way that would threaten its purpose or jeopardize those who rely on it.

(you say)"we don't want the symbol to become tarnished as saying one man, is difficult to deal with. I won't go into that for if i have received those emails i know you have also, right?"

As a matter of fact, no, I haven't. Those who have actually contacted me has found me to be anything but difficult. Maybe slow to respond when overwhelmed, but otherwise friendly and as helpful as it's possible to be.

(you say)"thus when this emblem is reproduced on the web, the holes appears as dots..."

Not when reproduced correctly. When done properly, the background shows through, creating the impression of a hole, not a dot. All the more so when a 3-dimensional representation is used, such as the ones I provide to anyone who wants one.

(you say)"Again as you said earlier the jewelry is yours, but the symbol on the world wide web, where there is "dots" because it can not show "holes" is where the anger within the community is coming from"

I'm sorry, this makes no sense to me. I'm no graphic artists but I made versions that display holes (allowing the background to show through) easily. Anybody who can't make one can download one from my web site or ask me for a copy. However, as I pointed out last time, many of the triskeles I see on BDSM web sites are NOT the Emblem, and require no copyright notice.

(you say)"It is my experience that this jewelry is "normally wore" at scene events and not in public."

I'm sure there are many who wear their emblems that way. There are also many who wear it daily as a subtle signal to the rest of us. That is what the Emblem was created for, and all my decisions in running The Emblem Project are first and foremost for those who use it in such a manner.

(you say)"I have been receiving emails that the symbol is beginning to stand for you and is synonymous with you..."

Well, this is the first I've heard of any such attitude. It certainly makes sense that I'm associated with the Emblem, as DeBlase will always be with the Leather Pride Flag, but I've never gotten any sense that those who buy my products do so as "Quagmyrites" or that those who wear Emblem tattoos consider it a symbol of me rather than the larger entity of BDSM and what it means in their lives.

(you say)"That is where my concern comes from, can you expand on which part you feel you own, the description, or all symbols on any BDSMers site? For instance if someone embroiders the symbol in pink and puts a peace rose where the holes would be, that is no where near your design, right and would be exempt from the necessity to show the copyright unless they also reprint the interpretation of the symbol "you created""

That embroidery is an excellent example. You are correct. By making it pink and putting roses in the place of the holes, they have created a different triskele which is NOT the BDSM Emblem and would need no permission from me. It would be the same if somebody where to take the idea of ther Red Cross logo, change the background from a white square to a pink diamond, make the upright line of the cross half the width and change the color to lavender. It is no longer the Red Cross logo and the designer can do as she wishes with it.

Here are the standard specs for the BDSM Emblem, as complete as I know how to make them:

A basic Celtic triskele shape with rim and spokes of uniform width, rotating clockwise. If portrayed 3-dimensionally, the inner fields are recessed. Rim and spokes are metal or of a color symbolizing metal. Inner fields are black, with round holes, not dots, at the foci.

As you vary from that, the symbol ceases to be the BDSM Emblem. Now, you are certainly free to create some other form of Triskele and say, as it's creator, "This stands for BDSM, too." That's fine as long as it's not a Triskele that already means something else. But the one described above is the only one I claim any ownership to. And it is the one I wish the entire BDSM community would standardize on. Not because of me, or because it would give me control, or make me more money. As I've already said, I wish no monopoly on that symbol -- I've opened it up as much as intellectual property law allows to make sure that all BDSMers can use it, make it, and sell it. But because of the reasons detailed in the Emblem Project FAQ and the Why Does It Matter page of my web site.

(you say)"We use the symbol to "highlight certain work" and have never used any copyright notice, so by your reasoning we could be sued by you for not complying right?"

First of all, I don't recall seeing the Emblem when I browsed through your site so I don't even know whether you're truly using the actual BDSM Emblem or some similar trisklele. Assuming, though, that it is the proper BDSM Emblem, the answer is, "I'm not sure." I certainly would have no interest in suing. But could I? Since I've released the symbol for free use throughout the BDSM community for all non-profit educational, artistic and cultural use, you have every right to use it on your site on all three counts. I'm not certain if that blanket permission legally allows the use of the Emblem without copyright notice but I operate on the assumption that it does, at least in certain instances. After all, there are numerous applications where the inclusion of a copyright notice would be counterproductive. People use the Emblem as little signals to those "in the know" on their calling cards. Or as a tattoo. It would be senseless to include copy rightnotices in either.

In places where it would not be counterproductive I usually ask for (I have yet to demand) a copyright notice as a courtesy. The courtesy, again, is not to me personally, but to the community as a whole. The acknowledgement of copyright protects my ability to protect the symbol. And that, I believe, is to all our advantage.

(you say)"after almost 9 years, it is time to let the community have it as long as they don't copy your jewelry or print your interpretation of the emblem without giving you credit."

But they do have it already. They truly do. I merely act as custodian. Anybody in the BDSM community can use it however they want -- except for outing it to the rest of the world.

Now, if you can show me how I can relinquish my rights to the work and still assure its protection, I'll be glad to go along. But even now, misinformation abounds. Misunderstandings are everywhere. BDSMers with the best of intentions have been saved from outing the symbol and jeopardizing those who rely on it because they had to write me for permission. And I don't know of a single instance in which they haven't been glad to have been saved of the mistake. How much worse would it be if nobody had to ask? I suspect the Emblem, as a covert and recognizable symbol, would be worthless within 2 years.

(you say)"I have began this dialogue, because ppl in the lifestyle are now expressing that they feel the emblem has been cheapen and no longer want to wear it to even scene events because of the hoopla surrounding it now."

Well, other than your letter, I'm not aware of any hoopla. I am aware that every couple years a dispute over the copyright issue breaks out in this or that online or local community. Eventualy the misnderstandings are cleared up for most people. But what seems to those inside the discussion like a controversy involving a large part of the BDSM world is, in fact, a tempest in a thimble that goes unnoticed by the vast vast majority of BDSMers.

(you say)"I don't want the symbol to be tarnished and to become a symbol of "perceived greed" even if none is there."

Nor do I. But neither do I want to leave the Emblem, and the people who rely on it, unprotected. And I have yet to see a way to relinquish my claims without putting those people in jeopardy. That is the bottom line.

So, if you want to achieve mutualy beneficial ends, it seems to me that the best course would be to help me spread the truth insitead of the misperceptions. In short:

* The Emblem belongs to All of BDSM.

* My rights only allow me to act as protector/custodian.

* Anyone in BDSM is free to use it as they wish, as long as it doesn't out the symbol.

* Sometimes use requires persmission, but permission is virutally a rubber stamp, again, as long as it doesn't out the symbol.

* I not only allow but encourage other people to make and sell worthwhile Emblem products.

* You can set your own price for a license. A cookie. A penny. A recipe. All I need is to show an exchange. I am not after your money.

Help me get the word on on that, and on what is and is not the BDSM Emblem and why that matters, and things can only be better.

Quag

Dec. 19, 2003

Hi Quag,

Ok let me say this one last time.... LOL

Without betraying anyone who says ( and i tend to believe them ), that you are difficult, have charged up to $500 ( in the old days ) as a license fee, i will attempt to give you the scope of the problem here.

I know you have to be aware of another jeweler in Calf. that paid you a user fee, had another business contact them to say there is NO copyright, and felt like you had slimed them. To this day they will not exchange banners with ANY ONE that gives you credit for the symbol and OF course they do not.

I do know of embroidery companies who stitches ( and of course it could not look like metal ), who had to agree to give you a full page with your "interpretation of the symbol" and the copyright. They got away with given you one of their products ( which the rest of the community has to pay for <called a perk by lobbyists >). Web Design companies that believe you own any variation of the symbol....... and have paid you for that, and have to show the copyright.... ( that is called free advertising and is a tad slimy ). Non profit munches with widely known public figures as members who did ask to use it on the "board's business cards", over and over these ppl were told they could only use the emblem if they included the long copyright info. They tried at length to get you to understand that it was a "business card and could not hold that much info.", finally each gave up and did not put it on the cards but walked away and then after checking out the copyright and sharing how very difficult you can be to even try to work with.

Now the WWW has made us not COVERT any longer, perhaps in 1995, but not now, anyone can go on any site and see the emblem so by your copyright and interpretation on those sites you have done the very thing you say you try to avoid... you have OUTED the very ppl you claim to want to protect. BTW, must of us don't feel we need protection ( for our own good ), we are consenting adults. So your claim to hold onto it is no longer true, by giving you credit on all of these sites with the notice you have it copyrighted to protect the "BDSM emblem" is the exact argument to not do that... Don't out us, it is you and not us that are outing ppl, with this type of attitude.

On ATR the one page i can think of right off is at the url of: http://www.atruerose.com/Library/poetry/SirWolf/masterstouch.htm and of course it is NOT the BDSM symbol..... for it has gold dots in the center right? Therefore if we spread the word that to have our covert symbol back we need to only change one lil item on your symbol... put a dot and remove the "transparent hole", now that would work, agreed?

(you say)"There are other crosses out there that are trademarks and logos <snip>"

Bingo.... what i have been saying... "trademarks and business logos" are much different than copyright of a Derivative symbol. In fact as i have offered i would be glad to send you the exact wording right down to chapter and paragraph. However i have an idea you have read it many times and are well aware of what it says.

(you say)"As a matter of fact, no, I haven't. Those who have actually contacted me has found me to be anything but difficult. <snip>"

Come on Quag, time for honesty, you know or you are dense not to know that the reputation is "Quag, boy is he difficult to try to work with, just walk away". It can not be that easy for me to get credible Nationally known ppl in the Scene opinions and you remain totally unaware.... But then perhaps it is age? I never did ask you how old you are....<smiles>

(you say)"I've opened it up as much as intellectual property law allows to make sure that all Besmears can use it, make it, and sell it. <snip>."

Just for conversation purposes.... did you know that the guy that invented the bar code used on everything we buy today, designed it and GAVE IT AWAY to make ppl's lives easier he thought.

(you say)"In places where it would not be counterproductive I usually ask for (I have yet to demand) a copyright notice as a courtesy. <snip>"

Can i quote you on the record in my upcoming editorial, and I will include in that editorial the exact way you word that you claim the BDSM symbol and ONLY if it meets that criteria.

(you say)"Debase will always be with the Leather Pride Flag, <snip>"

He gave it to the community he loved, you make money on the symbol.... Big difference.

(you say)"That embroidery is an excellent example. You are correct. By making it pink and putting roses in the place of the holes, they have created a different triskele which is NOT the BDSM Emblem and would need no permission from me. <snip>"

So we can agree on this... no embroidery company would need permission, because you can not make it look like metal with thread... Whew, at least we agree on one thing here.

(you say)"Now, if you can show me how I can relinquish my rights to the work and still assure its protection, I'll be glad to go along. <snip> ."

One last time you can not own, anything that you have never own... so this is a mute point, and i have covered that your insistence on credit with the "you have copyrighted the BDSM emblem to protect it".... Does just the opposite... by giving that notice ANY ONE visiting that web site knows it is no longer "covert or private", cause the credit to you, outs this symbol.

I will include the description of the symbol and the points at the end of your email in my editorial. When it is out would you like to read it?

Thanks again for this opportunity to get your feelings right from the horse's mouth as we say.

cajunrose

Oh what the heck.... Since I have done the research for the editorial, i will share what i am sure has been sent to you many times before... Again thanks for the lively discussion.

P. S. "What Is a Copyright?
Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of "original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and unpublished. The 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted work, to prepare derivative works, to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work, to perform the copyrighted work publicly, or to display the copyrighted work publicly."

AND Finally:

"A ''derivative work'' is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a ''derivative work''. "

Dec. 20, 2003

Whoa!

(you say)"Without betraying anyone who says ( and i tend to believe them ), that you are difficult, have charged up to $500 ( in the old days ) as a license fee..."

If somebody paid a license fee like that, it sure wasn't to me. You're being hosed, my friend, and if I were you, I'd insist on seeing the cancelled check or receipt! The highest value I have ever received for a license was a stained glass suncatcher from Glass Orchid Studio, which I believe retails in the $30 range, although the actual cost to produce is far far less. At the time, I recall protesting that she didn not have to pay with anything so valuable, but she insisted that her cost was small and it was what she wanted to do.

I have never received ANY Emblem-related payment even close to $500 for ANYTHING! I think the largest payment I've ever received was a bit under $300 for a large order of items, included a couple of 14K gold pieces.

(you say)"I know you have to be aware of another jeweler in Calf. that paid you a user fee, had another business contact them to say there is NO copyright, and felt like you had slimed them. To this day they will not exchange banners with ANY ONE that gives you credit for the symbol and OF course they do not."

Rather sad, that. I've had several people ask me about her stuff and I've always said good things about it. The licensing fee in question here, BTW, was a set of two or three coasters made out of mouse-pad-like material. Her retail value was, if I remember correctly, on the order of $3.50. About the time they arrived I got an email from her saying that they were defective (the inks used weren't properly waterproof) and that I shouldn't use them. I don't remember if she offered to replace them or not. Either way, I told her not to worry about it. All I cared about was the existence of a token exchange. So basically I sold her a lifetime license for 2 or 3 discks of useless cloth-covered rubber. That was, and still is, fine with me.

Sometime shortly after, she was told that a triskele isn't copyrightable. After several conversations, I'm still not convinced she undestood what is copyrightable and what isn't or what copyright actually is. I still believe that she got erroneous information, she felt otherwise. I guess she came to feel that I was operating in bad faith, but I still believe that her intentions are good but that there is much she misunderstands and I'm sorry that's the case.

She certainly never understood which triskeles are BDSM Emblems and which are not. Last I looked, she was selling several triskeles that have totally different meanings as BDSM symbols. That's just plain wrong, and does a disservice to her customers but it's outside of my realm. I have a voice only in her right to make and sell items with my own specific design, and she's bought the right to do that in perpetuity.

(you say)"I do know of embroidery companies who stitches ( and of course it could not look like metal ), who had to agree to give you a full page with your "interpretation of the symbol" and the copyright. They got away with given you one of their products ( which the rest of the community has to pay for <called a perk by lobbyists >)."

I remember a company that wanted to stitch the Emblem into clothing. Their initial letter to me offered either a shirt or a hat as payment for a lifetime license. I think it was a shirt. I never did receive it, by the way. Nor did I follow up with them asking for it. I just figured it got lost in the mail and left things alone -- again, I assumed them to be operating on good faith.

The company I'm referring to wanted to do the Emblem in various colors. I sent them the information that anything not done to the official color scheme wasn't really the Emblem and talked a bit about why that mattered. BTW, as far as metal color goes, the specs also say "a color that symbolizes metal." That includes yellow to represent gold, grey to represent silver, bluish grey to symbolize iron, etc. All I ask is getting as close as the medium allows.

I have no memory of any discussion about a full web page. If it was something they offered, I'm sure I gratefully accepted. Nothing like that has ever been a requirement for anyone!

(you say)"Web Design companies that believe you own any variation of the symbol....... and have paid you for that..."

I have never received any form of payment from any web design company. My web site makes it very clear what I claim to own the copyright to and what I don't.

(you say)"Non profit munches with widely known public figures as members who did ask to use it on the "board's business cards", over and over these ppl were told they could only use the emblem if they included the long copyright info. They tried at length to get you to understand that it was a "business card and could not hold that much info.", finally each gave up and did not put it on the cards but walked away and then after checking out the copyright and sharing how very difficult you can be to even try to work with."

Never happened. Ever. I have never required the use of copyright information on a business card. I have, however, asked that the Emblem not be used on business cards that would be used with the general public and which would be likely to let outsiders figure out that the Emblem represented BDSM.

(you say)<snip> In places where it would not be counterproductive I usually ask for (I have yet to demand) a copyright notice as a courtesy. <snip> Can i quote you on the record in my upcoming editorial, and I will include in that editorial the exact way you word that you claim the BDSM symbol and ONLY if it meets that criteria."

You can quote anything I've said on our correspondence, or on my web site, and long as you keep enough context so as not to change my meaning.

(you say)"<snip> Debase will always be with the Leather Pride Flag, <snip> He gave it to the community he loved, you make money on the symbol.... Big difference."

Yup. I fronted the money to create something people were asking for -- at a time, I may add, when money was very tight for me. I did it as a way of giving back to an online community that had helped me grow. And for years I sold it at insignificant profit. Only in the past 3 years have I made more than ocassional lunch money. But from the beginning, I made it possible for anybody else to do the same. I have never monopolized the Emblem and have always welcomed others to add to the products available. That sounds mighty fair to me.

(you say)"So we can agree on this... no embroidery company would need permission, because you can not make it look like metal with thread... Whew, at least we agree on one thing here."

See 11 paragraphs above.

(you say)"I will include the description of the symbol and the points at the end of your email in my editorial. When it is out would you like to read it?"

I would indeed. Where will it be appearing?

rose, I have no idea what the source of your information is but there is so much that you're telling me that is utter fabrication on somebody's part. I can think of only three possible explanations:

1- Somebody or somebodies have been having a wonderful time stirring up trouble by telling you tall tales and yanking your chain.

2- This whole correspondence is an attempt to yank my chain, or,

3- There's somebody out there who's managed to masquerade as me and take massive advantage of people.

Personally, I find option 3 by far the least likely.

Now, I'm going to assume that you yourself are acting in good faith and deal with this just a little longer.

Regarding what I'm like to work with and what I require: If you like, I'll go into my archives and send you copies of correspondence I've had with several people regarding permission to use the Emblem in various ways. I will, of course, obscure their identities. But if there are any you wish to check on, I'll email them anbd find out if they;re willing to correspond with you. Some of these are pretty old so there's no guarantee that the email addresses are still valid, so I'd recommend selecting several and assuming that a good percentage will be unreachable.Youmight also want to get in touch with the folks at St. Louis Leather and Lace, who have dealt with me personally for years at their events. Their web site is http://www.stl3.com/.

As for copyright: I've heard a couple times before from others, and now from you, about those who have talked to the Copyright office and been told that the Emblem is uncopyrightable. I have yet to see any evidence of the fact. Assuming that such conversations took place, I have no idea what information was presented to the Copyright Office and, in at least one instance, suspect that the symbol being discussed was a classic Celtic triskele and not the actual BDSM Emblem at all. So, sometime after the first of the year when my end-of-year crunch settles, I will do the thing I have long thought a waste of time and effort and register my copyright. Then we'll see what happens. If the Copyright Office kicks it back to me, I'll concede that I was in error and tell the story on my web site. If not, then things will continue as they are.

Fair enough?

Quag

Dec. 21, 2003

(you say)"<snip> Debase will always be with the Leather Pride Flag, <snip>"

He gave it to the community he loved, you make money on the symbol.... Big difference.
BTW, here's a lttle more information from The Historyof the Leather Pride Flag, which you'll find at http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/village/7114/histlthr.html. Emphasis mine.

"Desmodus Inc. [DeBlase's company, at the time, publisher of Drummer] has a copyright on the design and anyone wishing to use it for purely commercial purposes must receive our written approval. However, we welcome members of the Leather/SM community to use the design for flags, banners, pins, printed material, etc. to be distributed free or sold at cost, or to be used for fund raising for not-for-profit causes that benefit Leather men and women. No permission is required for these uses, but we do ask that you inform us of the use and, where possible, send us samples."
"We have had cloisonné pins made. These are about 1" wide and are available for $5. Photos of the flag at IML and, hopefully, in the parades as well, will be in Drummer 132."

Quag

Dec. 21, 2003

Thank you,

Do you want me to include this in the editorial? Also you might find this interesting:

From Tony DeBlase, "In the first few years following development of the flag a few people applied for a license to produce it commercially, one of the first was Chuck Higgins, who made bumper stickers. Lambda Rising requested rights to make decals. We sent them a contract and offered our usual licensing fee: $1 per year. They never bothered to respond, but did start producing a line of decals, pins, stickers and other leather pride flag items. John Ponce was one of the first to incorporate the design into fine jewelry. Some day I hope I can afford one of his beautiful rings with the ruby heart! "

After he sold the company in 1992, it became public domain and remains so.... but if you like i can add this and that no one had to show the copyright or give any advertisement to DeBlase, and of course when he sold Desmodus Inc. it went bankrupt, no longer exists... So besides Tony GIVING it and never collecting one penny for the commercial use.. let alone the wide use for the community.....of any free advertisements on business and personal web sites.....

But if you really want that included i will.... i guess the reader can draw their own conclusions?

Thanks again and have a great day,

cajunrose

Dec. 22, 2003

(you say)"Do you want me to include this in the editorial? Also you might find this interesting:"

I'll tell you what, how about this as a capsule summary?

DeBlase sold commercial licenses for $1/year until he sold his company. He never followed up on it when the requirement was ignored and operated the requirement on the honor system.

Quagmyr sells commercial licenses for as little as a 1¢/forever (or even less), has also never followed up on payment that wasn't received and also operates the requirement on the honor system within the BDSM community.

One last thing. This began as a friendly and respectful disagreement. I'd certainly like to keep it that way.

To that end, you may disagree with my positions, policies or conclusions as vehemently as you wish, be it in email or in publications, and I promise no hard feelings. Who knows? In time, you may even convince me that you're right on some points.

You will cross the line, however, if you present any of the allegations that I have denied as being fact. Naturally, I have no right to attempt to stop you from reporting what others claim, even if they're fabrications. I wouldn't even try. But I strongly urge you to present unproven allegations as just that, and report my denial as well. If you publish such things as making somebody pay me a license fee of $500, or requiring web design companies to pay me licensing fees, or that silliness about requiring full copyright notice on business cards and present it as proven fact, then make very very certain that you have concrete proof. Which you don't, because they never happened.

If you believe you do have proof, than I suggest you share it with me and give me a chance to demonstrate otherwise.

I'm very serious about this -- I welcome disagreement and alternate points of view. But I don't want a battle with you. I believe your intentions are good and I don't want you to end up looking foolish because you were taken in by those with whatever axes to grind when you could have easily checked the facts.

Quag

Dec. 22, 2003

Dear Quag,

(you say)"<snip> One last thing. This began as a friendly and respectful disagreement. I'd certainly like to keep it that way. <snip>"

By all means.... i think if you will check me out... you will find i am very fair and i would never ever quote you out of context... In each of our exchanges, on those points you responded too.... your whole response will be shown and i would never dream of leaving one word out....

That is not what i am about, what my "own thoughts and editorials" are about and certainly i think as representing ATR, i MUST be fair and quote what you said... word for word... i would never think of doing a "minor snip" and present your dialogue with me with only partial responses... that would violate my personal integrity and everything i stand for...

Fair enough?

rose

Dec. 22, 2003

Fair enough?
Sounds good to me :-)

Quag

Dec. 22, 2003

(you say)"In each of our exchanges, on those points you responded too...."

I almost forgot. Due to time restraints, I did indeed limit my response to those points which I thought most important and most likely to benefit from clarification. If there are any that I omitted and which you'd particularly wish me to address, please let me know. It's certainly not my intent to sidestep any questions you consider important.

Best.

Quag

Dec. 22, 2003

You might also be interested in information appearing in this email interview I did with The Crystal Bridge. Some of it touches on topics we've discussed.

Quag
=======

I have often heard of the symbol referred to as the "SSC" symbol, it's
original intention was really more than that wasn't it?

The original intention was to create a piece of jewelry that would allow BDSMers fearing persecution to identify themselves to each other secretly. We already had Tony DeBlase's Leather Pride Flag as an "out-and-proud" symbol. But there were -- and still are -- a lot of BDSMers who cannot afford to be out, no matter how proud. They fear losing their jobs, being socially ostracized, or losing custody of their children.

A lot of these folks were wondering, "How many more like me are out there? How many others do I pass by every day and never know?" During one of many online conversations about that, somebody said, "We need a pin we can wear to recognize each other. Something that only we'll know." I'm the one who volunteered to come up with something and get it made.

So the function of the symbol came first. The symbolism came afterwards, as I was working out the details. The 3-part design made for an obvious connection to "Safe, Sane and Consensual." But even before that, I realized that it was also natural for the three parts to represent the primary divisions of BDSM: Bondage and Discipline, Dominance and Submission, Sadism and Masochism. They also stand for the three main types of practitioners: Tops, Bottoms and Switches.

Others have added their own favorite threesomes to their personal symbolism. In some people’s minds, the three parts represent the Hetero, Gay/Lesbian and Bi portions of the BDSM community. Others like the three aspects that they read in The Story of O, which were, I believe, Pain, Pleasure and Sin.

Meanwhile, there's also symbolism in the colors, the holes, and more.

So yes, SSC is just one of the many things the Emblem represents, and far from the first. Its original, and still most important, meaning remains, “Hi there! Me too!”

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You always refer to the symbol as The BDSM Emblem. Is that its official name?

Yes, although I'm embarrassed to confess that it has that name only because I couldn't come up with anything more creative. The many other ideas I played with all sounded silly. It was only after the Emblem had caught on that I thought of condensing the name into the more distinctive "BDSMblem." I'm still tempted to do that sometimes, but it seems a little late in the game.

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How did the BDSM Emblem come to be so universally accepted and the visual
identification of BDSM?

I'd love to tell you that it was due to some special genius on my part, but that would be a lie. It happened because it filled the right need at the right time.

I already talked about how many BDSMers had to keep their interest quiet to avoid persecution, but also wanted to connect -- even if just to see that there were others like them out there. With the growth of online chat areas, the number of people discovering BDSM mushroomed. Each day brought another wave of individuals and couples balancing that need for discretion against the need for community. Meanwhile, the World Wide Web was just beginning to come into its own. BDSM-oriented web sites were popping up, eager to foster connections and hungry for content.

The BDSM Emblem premiered on the Web as a crude black and white drawing posted by the webmaster of the Multics area of the Wizvax site. This was back when the original Emblem pins were still being planned, I believe. Who knew back then just how strong a force one obscure web page could be? Especially if the need was there.

Remember that the Web was much smaller then. A large percentage of people with access would spend hours seeking out pages relevent to their interests purely as recreation. They’d tell each other about pages they’d found. In that environment, the BDSM Emblem idea just kept spreading. Slowly at first, but with increasing speed.

That all seems almost inevitable in retrospect. At the time, though, I wasn't pay close attention to what was happening on the Web. I merely noticed that orders for Emblem pins and pendants kept trickling in from a wider and wider circle of people, and in slowly increasing numbers. One day I did a Web search and found that the Emblem was all over the world. I was stunned! Orders and email started coming in from Europe. I got email telling me that the Emblem had become the most popular BDSM symbol in Australia.

I was stunned! On one hand, this was just what I'd been working for -- to make the Emblem something useful to BDSMers around the world. There was always that worry, though, that in the end, the Emblem would be used for a while by the relatively small community where it originated and then fade into obscurity. I'm still in awe of how it worked out. And gratified.

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What are your thoughts on commercial use of your emblem? i.e., Annas Art
(http://www.annasart.com/) and other such sites that are for profit using
artistic variations and/or including your original design?

The whole purpose of the Emblem Project is to get the Emblem used and used properly. It exists to do a job, to help BDSMers recognize each other safely. I’m all for anything that helps it do that job.

Beyond that, the Emblem has become personally meaningful to a lot of people, and they want to express that meaning or see it expressed. I'd have to be quite an ungrateful Grinch to want to squash that in any way.

I'll make it as easy as possible for anybody to make and market a quality Emblem product, so long as it doesn't threaten the Emblem's reason for existence. All I ask is that the people making such products write me and go through the trivial red tape of getting licensed.

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You mention licensing. Is the Emblem copyrighted, and what do people need to do if they would like to use it in some sort of project?

Yes, unlike Tony DeBlase with his Leather Pride Flag, I never released my design and artwork into public domain. This is so that I could protect the Emblem. Since its purpose is to be a covert identifier, it would only hurt us all if its meaning was broadcast all over or turned up on t-shirts at Sears. With a copyright, I was able to say "No" when somebody wanted to use the Emblem in an adult game that would have ended up on the shelves of every Spencer’s Gifts in malls across the US. And to quash it being used on the cover of a novel that was supposed to receive a big marketing push to all the major bookstores.

But I do make it as easy as possible to use where it was meant to be used. I have published that the Emblem is freely available for any not-for-profit educational, artistic or cultural use within the BDSM community. That covers most of the things people want to use it for.

As far as for-profit use goes, that requires a bit of paperwork, because I have to be able to prove that I am protecting my copyright should it ever come to a challenge. If somebody wants it for a one-time use -- say, a jeweler wants to put it on pair of custom-ordered wedding rings -- he only has to write me, tell me what he's doing and ask permission. I'll say "Sure," and that's the end of it.

Ongoing use, such as the Anna's Artwork you mentioned, requires a license. That involves some sort of payment, but it is strictly token. I merely need to be able to show that I am requiring something of value in exchange for the license. However, it doesn't matter how much value. Even when I tell people that there’s only a token fee, they start worrying about it being expensive. Let me tell you what I mean by token: I just sold a license for the fee of one low-fat vegetarian recipe. She typed up and emailed the recipe, and I sent her the license. In some other cases, the "fee" was agreeing to an arrangement where I could help them sell more of their stuff.

Again, it goes back to the purpose of The Emblem Project. It's go get the Emblem used for its intended purpose. I produce a lot of products to do that, but I can't make everything anybody might want. So I make it as easy as possible for other good products to get out there.
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Your site talks about variations of this "theme", (i.e., what is and is not THE
Emblem.) It so well researched. What is your academic background in?
(art..history?)

My academic background is in world religions and social ethics. My professional background is in media and communications. The information on other types of Triskeles similar to the BDSM Emblem was gathered piecemeal over the years, some by my own research and some kindly provided by others. Every now and then I still receive email with tidbits of new information.

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Does it bother you to see "tweaked" or bastardized versions of the Emblem
out there?

I don't know that "bastardized" is the right word, but there is some real danger in modifying the BDSM Emblem.

First of all, the Triskele, which is the basic shape that the Emblem is based upon, is a very old symbol. There are a great many triskeles out there, all with different details and all with meanings of their own. The meaning is in the details! So if you change the details of the BDSM Emblem, you may very well be changing it into a different symbol with a different meaning. You may think you have a cool version of the BDSM Emblem on your web site, but what you really have is the symbol of some Taoist religious order, or a Celtic political movement, or who-knows-what.

Even more important is the fact that the Emblem is meant to communicate something, and by changing the details you make the communication unclear. If the details are different, how will you or anyone else know for sure that this is the BDSM Emblem and not one of the umpteen hundred other types of triskeles? For example, you see a woman wearing a pin that looks like the BDSM Emblem except the rim and spokes are green and there are little jewels in the holes. Is she displaying the BDSM Emblem? Is she a prize student at Kelly's Taekwondo Academy? Perhaps she's a rep for some new Irish cookie distributor. How can you tell? Well, you can't. So what's the point of using a symbol in a way that prevents the very people who are supposed to recognize it from knowing what it means?

My web site has a copy of a letter I received from a member of a Celtic Pagan community. Part of their symbolism is a basic Celtic Triskele, similar to, but distinctly different than, the BDSM Emblem. A number of his co-worshipers were getting very ticked off that folks were approaching them about BDSM because these BDSMers didn’t know the difference between a BDSM Emblem and a Celtic Triskele. Well, I don't blame them for being upset about that. No matter what groups we belong to, I think we all have a responsibility to know our symbols and use them properly.

For reader who may not know, here are the details that make a triskele the BDSM Emblem:

1- The ring and spokes are metal or a color indicating metal.

2- The rim and spokes are of uniform width, with the spokes rotating clockwise.

3- The inner fields are black, or as close to black as the medium allows.

4- The holes in the black fields are indeed holes and not dots.

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Why, then, is the Emblem so similar to other symbols? Why not something more distinctive?

It’s precisely because the triskele is such a widely-used shape that it was chosen for the BDSM Emblem. The key word here is, “camouflage.”

Remember that the Emblem was created to be a secret symbol, one that BDSMers fearing persecution could use to identify each other even in potentially hostile environments. We wanted something that would not draw attention to itself and which only those in the know would recognize. Most people wouldn’t think twice about triskele jewelry -- it looks like just a nice Celtic design. When outsiders do ask, it’s easy to deflect the question with talk about it being a variation on a common Celtic and Asian pattern.Only other BDSMers would recognize it by the details. Again, the meaning is in the details.

The original reason for considering a triskele, however, is that the rings described in The Story of O were based on some form of triskele. So the idea of jewelry in this shape already had a degree of inside meaning.

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You mention that this whole project started from a very small online BDSM
community. How do you feel about the enormous growth of BDSM online? Do you
feel the surge of growth has had a positive or negative effect on the
subculture?

Oh, gee, you could write a whole book on this topic. The downside of it all is certainly obvious to anyone who's spent any amount of time in any online BDSM community -- the silly posturing, the instant experts, the sexual and emotional predators, the high school-level social/political games, the lack of regard for the difference between fantasy and reality, all the things that drive so many of us nuts.

And yet I think the good far outweighs the bad. There are so many people who would have gone through life ashamed of inner needs, thinking themselves freaks, who now know that they're part of something natural and okay. There are countless numbers of submissives who would have sentenced themselves to lives of abusive relationships but are now able to seek out, to use John Warren’s term, loving dominance.

More broadly, I think the awareness of our numbers and needs is putting BDSM in the position that the Gay community was a few decades ago. We're still definitely looked down upon but on the verge of developing political clout. I believe that in time, the growth of BDSM awareness is going to create more impetus for sexual freedom. It's going to be a long slow battle, though, and the more we can all support the NCSF, the better off we'll all be.

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What future do you visualize with your symbol?

Nowadays, a secret symbol can remain a secret for only so long. It's no longer the deep deep deep secret it was at the beginning, but it still seems to have several years of effective life left. Eventually, I suppose it will evolve into another open symbol for BDSM, coexisting with the Leather Pride Flag. It would be nice if we no longer needed a secret symbol by then. But if we do, I’m sure somebody will come up with the next one.

Dec. 22, 2003

Would you mind sending me the url for the ezine, your interview appeared in.... so i can quote you from it and have a reference basis for others to relate to.

Thank you,

rose

Dec. 22, 2003

(you say)"Would you mind sending me the url for the ezine, your interview appeared in.... so i can quote you from it and have a reference basis for others to relate to."

Hi rose!

The Crystal Bridge ezine is at http://www.crystal-bridge.com/. My interview appeared early in 2003, I want to say 2nd quarter. I don't know if they have archives where its possible to view articles from earlier issues.

Best,

Quag

NOTE: I BECAME VERY ILL IN 2002 AND SO THERE WAS NO CONTACT IN 2004, OUR EMAILS PICK UP WITH THE NEXT SERIES.

May 12, 2005

Dear Quag,

We corresponded back in 2003 about an article I intended to write called "The myth of the BDSM Emblem", in which I was going to use the letter we received when we applied for a copyright of the BDSM emblem that you were receiving free ads for all over the net, as the "copyright holder".

We had a very interesting exchange of emails and I informed you that once we were ready to release the article I would include all of our emails, my questions to you and your answers... During that exchange you admitted that you did not hold the copyright to the emblem but you did own the trademark for only the specific dimensions you used for jewelry that you sold.

You told me at that time you would apply for a copyright in Jan. 2004 and if you received the same letter of refusal as it was a "derivative work, and as such was not changed enough to be consider copyrightable", then you would correct that misconception on your site.

I see you have changed a lot on your site and hint you don't have a valid